New Arrival, Job Number 250116

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/qhLygdHcgDEH7awY8

New Arrival, Job Number 230072

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/FjfM8b4pmz1JJnvQ9

Job Number 220002, Continued

This 16 size, grade 374, Father Time movement came in reported to have a non-functioning up/down indicator. On taking it apart I found the entire up/down mechanism inexplicably missing. I have never seen these parts for sale.

Miraculously, a source turned up with a cache of NOS parts for this complication. They weren't cheap, but they're here and it looks like it will all work.

The parts will work, but there is one problem. The stack of gears that transfers motion from below the mainspring to the dial side is too tall. The barrel bridge does not sit all the way down in place. The part that solely (as far as I can tell) dictates that height is the pinion 'G'. All the other parts have a fixed size and the arbor of the assembly just floats at the lower end so it doesn't care.

On close examination, I noticed that part G is really rough on one end in particular. On the other end it flatter, but does have a barely notable lip on the hole. These ends should be polished smooth.

I think this part is unfinished and it is by design that this piece should be reduced for the particular movement during final assembly at the factory since each movement could be just a bit different and this assembly needs to fit to a higher tolerance than other parts under that bridge. 

Here is the slight gap, visible at the left end of the upper plate as it sits on the up/down assembly. It seems like the pinion needs to be shorter by that amount.

I need to study the whole thing more and think about it before doing anything though.

Meanwhile, here's more parts from this movement that are getting hard to locate. The mainspring for Elgin's motor barrel hooks at the edge of the spring end. This the only time they used ends like this, on 16 and 18 size motor barrels. These springs are still around, but have become more expensive.

That hook attaches to a machined-in raised portion at the end of the slot at the outside edge of the barrel.These barrels are really, really hard to find if that hook area breaks or wears. It looks like a tab cut as part of the slot that could be duplicated, but it is isn't. It is manufactured into the floor or the barrel. I have not been able to succeed at repairing one of these in a way that would last.

When I first started watchmaking around 2000, I had 3 or 4 of these barrels. They all have been used in repairs. I did not at the time realize how scarce they would become.

By the way, most of my project get a single blog post. Some, like this, will have more than one. To look for project posts, use the search box with the job number. See all the posts for this project here. 

The album for this project is here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1S13eWk9AjXT1qce8

Job Number 220002, Grade 374, Missing Some Parts?

This 16 size, grade 374, Father Time movement came in reported to have a non-functioning up/down indicator. When I removed the barrel bridge it was immediately obvious why. In this first image, the cut-out to one side of the barrel should hold a complicated little stack of gears that transfers motion from the barrel edge down to a thin, flat gear under the barrel. The gears are completely missing.

The thin flat gear is also not present. 

This post about a similar Veritas movement shows some of the missing parts.

It's odd that the entire works of this complication would be missing. The hour wheel-like indicator gear, the wheel that drives it, and original hand itself are present on the dial side. The movement is otherwise in good condition, although showing some wear.

The album for this project is here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1S13eWk9AjXT1qce8

New Arrival, Job Numbers 220002

The Up/Down indicator on this one is not working, even though it winds and runs OK. Should be interesting... 

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Project link (all the posts):
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Job Number 200024, Elgin Grade 494

Here we have an unusual Elgin, a grade 494, 16 size, 23 jewels, made about 1934. It is lever-set and features a motor barrel and up/down indicator.

There was a minor issue right from the start. It’s hard to see but one of the head of the dial screws is split in half. Fortunately I was able to reach in there and turn it out.

Over-tightening of screws in watches is a very common problem. In the case of dial foot screws, it’s the main way dials get cracked. Tightening one, literally, until the head breaks off is just off the charts.

Two very thin steel gears under the barrel transfer rotation from the gear stack to a larger brass gear that sits under the dial, all for the up/down indicator.

Here are these two parts in place. The cutouts for these parts are what makes a 16 size Elgin with the up/down complication stand out.

These parts make up the rest of the up/down mechanism.  A cleverly designed stack of gears transfers revolutions of the mainspring barrel arbor to an “up/down indicator” sub-dial that reads how much the watch is wound.

Someone scribed an arrow on the side of the mainspring barrel. I assume they meant to remind themselves which way the spring went - which a little odd. It only goes one way.

By far the best way to be sure how things fit together is to fully understand how the watch works.

The motor barrel… This is a 23 jewel watch so the barrel arbor is jeweled bot upper and lower. 

Just above the ‘O’ in “positions”, you can see the upper pivot of the up/down gear stack.

If you zoom in, you can also just make out where the top of the gear stack meshes with the ratchet wheel to move the up/down indicator when winding, just below “tions”. 

On the dial side a larger brass wheel ultimately drives the indicator. It is meshed with the very thin gears under the mainspring barrel.

Note the extra hour wheel-like part. It sits on a fixed post and holds the wind hand.

Find the album for this project here.

New Arrival, Job Number 200024

It's always nice to see one of these.

Q&A: Wind Indicators and Mainsprings

Q: A grade 454 Elgin with a wind indicate that reads a range of 0 to 40 hours only runs for about 36 hours on a full wind. Is this a mainspring issue?

A: With few exceptions, regardless of whether a watch has a wind indicator, the run times are designed-in the same, with the same requirements.

A watch stops when the power of the mainspring can no longer push through the friction of the mechanism, which is never zero. Exactly when this happens depends on many factors of the condition of the watch and the mainspring. The designers of the watch intended it to support fully winding and setting once a day, generally at the same time each day. And they intended that it still be running at that time. So "normal" is 24 hours plus some slack.

In my experience, the vast majority of usual and typical condition vintage watches run in the ballpark of 28-36 hours on a full wind.

As far as improving that...

The strength of the mainspring isn't the first thing to go after. If you think about it, all that's happening is the spring got turned X turns, it will "un-turn" X turns to move the hands. Power is slowly released by the escapement, but really it's just geometry; X turns in, X turns out. There
are no wasted turns. Even if a watch runs for 3 hours, no turns just disappear. It will just take that much fewer turns to wind it fully again.

In a perfect world. wasted power through friction would be close to zero. In this case the mainspring would need almost no strength to turn the mechanism. It's just about the number of turns. In practice, it really comes close to this. A fair condition watch, properly serviced, can be powered for well over 24 hours even by a nearly dead mainspring.

You can't gain more turns (and longer run time) unless you use a longer, thinner, and weaker spring, so that more turns can fit in the barrel.

A stronger mainspring, that turns the same about, may actually be problematic for an antique, that already has some wear on the mechanism. It will force the bearings to power through friction, more rubbing and grinding, on slightly damaged surfaces, causing more damage, where the watch would have otherwise stopped earlier.

A really unfortunate hack sometimes used in the old days by "botchmakers" was to get a watch to run by replacing a mainspring with a stronger one than intended - thus forcing it to tick. The replacement spring would be thicker, so fewer winds would fit in the barrel, so this was at the expense of run-time. Worse though, it was forcing the mechanism to run under more force than intended, potentially causing damage. Also, some original, actual, problem was left uncorrected. I've actually seen this in watches a few times.

But the short answer is that just because a watch has a wind indicator doesn't mean it's supposed to run that long. In fact, the wind indicator is one more little set of gears the thing has to power - more friction.

I usually set wind indicators so their hand is at zero when the watch is fully run down. In that way it likely does not fully wind up to its maximum reading. That way, the indicator truly shows run-time remaining as it was intended.

New Arrivals

In for service...

The one on the right has an up/down indicator. Luckily it seems to be working. I don't know where I'd get parts for that mechanism.

Elgin Grade 478

This watch is an Elgin grade 478. This is a scarce and highly collectible 16 size movement, 21 jewels, with an "up/down" indicator.

This example was made about 1925.

Elgin Grade 372

This is a lever-set, B. W. Raymond model, made about 1911.

The grade 372 is a 16 size, 19 jewel movement.

This individual watch does not match the factory records though, which show this production run as having an up/down indicator.  This watch clearly does not.

It does have a double-sunk dial, a nicely finished micro regulator, a motor barrel and raised, gold, jewel bezels though.

Elgin Grade 494

The grade 494 is quite a nice 16 size pocketwatch movement.  It's a 23 jewel design, lever-set, with a motor barrel and an up/down wind indicator.

The wind  indicator shows power remaining, in the form of run-time, on the mainspring.

This watch was made about 1934.

JS018

Elgin Grade 376, Veritas

This is a grade 376 Elgin, Veritas model.  It is a 16 size 23 jewel movement, featuring an up/down wind indicator and motor barrel.

When you change out an Elgin balance staff, the old one is removed by cutting off very close to the entire hub in the lathe.  The remaining bit is popped off in the staking tool.  This prevents any damage to the arms of the balance wheel, and you get a free tiny washer!

In this picture we see the new staff, upper, and what's left of the old staff.

This fine example was made about 1915.

 

Elgin Grade 391

Here's a nice Elgin grade 391. This is a high-grade 16 size, 21 jewel railroad watch featuring an "up/down" indicator which shows remaining runtime on the mainspring.

This is a B.W. Raymond movement, made about 1911.