New Arrivals, Job Numbers 190015 and 190022

Job Number 190005, An Interesting Mainspring Issue

This older Key-wind Elgin pocketwatch had a broken mainspring.

Looking up the parts data for grade 13 (early one) shows factory number 812, bottle (refill) number 282. This is a really common mainspring for 18 size Elgin pocketwatches.

The Elgin packaging for this spring shows the refill number 282 (the number used in an Elgin parts assortment, and 812 (the factory number).

Note that 838 is an inventory number referring to mainsprings. Most Elgin packaging includes a number, 285, from a different system for this code. See this list... I just happened to pick an oddball for this photo.

This part number refers to the dimensions and strength of the spring. However it does not take into account the end type.

Most Elgin springs for 18 size watches will be "hole-end", meaning the end has a hole. It will also have a couple tabs that go into slots in the barrel and the barrel cap.

Older Elgin barrels don't have the slots. A common modification I see is a tab slot filed into the cap for the upper tab, and the spring having the lower tab cut off. It's easy to file that slot in the edge of the cap, but harder to cut the slot in the bottom edge of the barrel, and hole does most of the work of holding the end secure. 

Where the barrel does not have a post for the spring end hole, another common modification I see a lot on old key-winds is a hole drilled in the sidewall and a post threaded in, for the hole. Allowing a tabbed hole-end spring to work.

An example of a spring modification is shown here, the lower tab files off. I have several springs sitting around that look like this. I should also mention at this point that sometimes the hole is too small or the wrong shape and the mainspring also has to be modified accordingly - even though it is the "correct" 812 part. You have to have those tiny files handy.

Anyway, when I went to change the spring on this project, I thought this would be the situation.

Many older Elgin key-winds have a "T-end" rather than a hole-end. On these there is no hole, nor tabs, but the tip of the spring is folder back over a small piece of steel wire that sticks out top and bottom like a T.

Elgin manufactured both hole-end and T-end mainsprings, both having part number 812. A common watchmaking task was to alter a mainspring to have the type of end the barrel called for.
 

This watch held a surprise. There is a third type of end for mainsprings, "tongue-end."

With these the end of the spring is fold back and out on itself so that it catches on a ledge in the inside edge of the barrel. This type is common on later "modern" wristwatches from say the 50s and 60s, especially Swiss movements and older European pocketwatches.

If I have ever seen an 18 size Elgin with a tongue-end mainspring, I can't recall it. Weird...

This is the original barrel too, it has the movement serial number stamped inside.

Again, it is certainly possible to create a tongue-end from another type. But a previous repairer did something else to this one. Notice in the image there is a round hole in the bottom edge of the barrel just past the ledge. Someone has drilled a hole there so the more common, from the factory, T-end spring could be fit.

For completeness at this point here is the vastly more common type of Elgin barrel There is a post for the hole, and back a bit, the slot for the tab on the mainspring.

Anyway, next I took a closer look at the end of the broken spring I had removed from the watch...

Check this out. The repairer has filed away just part of the the lower tab only, leaving something that would fit in the hole, like it was a T-end spring, and even though there is no post for the hole.

So, some history... At some point the original tongue-end spring broken. Not able to get one like that (no surprise), the watchmaker drilled a hole and used a T-end spring.

When the spring broken again later, probably a different watchmaker altered a regular hole-end Elgin mainspring, the most common type, to work with the hole in the barrel.

By the way, the barrel cap has a notch in the edge intended for inserting a screw driver to remove the cap. In each of these cases that notch can be located to hold the upper tab or T-end.

So what do I do?

1) Alter a mainspring to make it a tongue-end.
2) locate a T-end Elgin spring.
3) Cut a slot and add a post to the barrel.
4) Replace the barrel with a later one.
5) Alter a hole-end spring the way someone other repairer did.

Option 1... I know how to fix a spring end and have done it many times. But to do this, I'd have to use an old steel spring, and it would involve shortening it slightly. In addition, there's good reason they didn't use tongue-end designs. These springs on the big Elgins are pretty strong. And this is a key-wind. I think it would be prone, having no tabs, to coming unhooked. And an older steel spring, unavoidably partially "set" would make that even worse.

2) Locate a T-end spring. This has the advantage of leaving the barrel alone, and not making any permanent modifications. But again, I'd be forced to use an old mainspring, not at its prime. An alloy spring of that end type is probably not available (at least I have never seen one).

3 and 4) Replacing or altering the barrel to match a new alloy spring is a bad way to go. It would be one thing if it was broken or worn out, but it isn't. It's a serial numbered part and should be preserved. Watchmakers' rule: never alter existing parts to make a replacement work.

5) Maybe, but the spring really isn't intended to work that way.

Here is a T-end Elgin 812 mainspring. I'm going with this.

Mainspring installed, on the bottom of the barrel you can see where the T post is in the hole.

Here we can see the top (cap) of the barrel. The other end of that T is just visible in the screwdriver slot in the cap.

So far so good.

One more interesting thing here. This movement has a different regulator from other grade 3 examples I have seen. Others have the regulator facing back over the balance cock. On this one, the regulator faces out over the top plate. The index is engraved on the plate, unusual for Elgin. They normally used a separate indicator screwed to the plate.

See the entire album for this project here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/65bEo3JBkxKVehd88

See more "creative repairs" here!

New Arrival, Job Number 190011

I worked on this watch in 2013 as job number 120021. It's back for service.

Job Number 150161

This is a grade 519, 8/0 size, 15 jewels, made about 1935. 

Typical vintage wristwatch case for a positive setting movement... In "positive setting" watches the "snap and the stem are part of the movement, not the watch case.

See also "negative setting".

This watch required some serious hairspring work, but it ran well in the end!

Album here...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QvwQPsvr5vc9j5Tq5

Job Number 160118

Here are typical winding/setting parts from this 1899 model Waltham. Many, many Walthams use this "shipper" arrangement. There are more parts here than other makes used, and it's a bit harder to assemble, but the design does work well.

Testing the new balance staff, prior to adding the roller table and hairspring to the balance assembly...

The is a Waltham, 15 jewels, 16 size, 1899 model, grade 620.

See the album for this project here.

Job Number 170052

This is an Elgin grade 288, 18 size, 7 jewels, made about 1908.

This complete album for this project is here.

New Arrival, Job Number 190009

New Arrivals, Job Numbers 190005 and 190007

This Waltham has two interesting things going on. First, it is a "stretch case". The movement is 6 size, but the case is larger, more like 12 size. This give the watch a larger size but a thinner profile. You can see the wider than usual bezel.

Secondly, it is a hunter movement, with the seconds dial (the third wheel) at 90 degrees from the stem. An open face movement has the stem 180 degrees from the seconds dial. The dial this watch has is a rotated design, so that the 12:00 is "up" by the stem. This places the seconds dial at 3:00.

This Elgin is an older key-wind and set. Always nice to get these ticking...

Job Number 160251

I take high resolution (not phone), top down photos of all the watches before they head back to their homes. These are examples.

This Elgin B. W. Raymond is a grade 240, 18 size, 19 jewels, made about 1900. 

The album for this project is here.

Job Number 160275

This one is a is a grade 452 Elgin, 12 size, 17 jewels, made about 1926.

 Replacement balance staff...

Job Number 1700014

This one is a is a grade 351 Elgin, 16 size, 23 jewels, made about 1907.

See the complete album for this project here.

Job Number 170013

This is an Elgin grade 162, 16 size, 21 jewels, made about 1896, three-fingered bridge model.

Album here...

The "fingers" are actually one part on these. This is common with American fingered designs.

 More examples here.

Job Number 170002

Although this watch is in pretty good condition, there were a couple red flags. One was a piece of folded up tissue paper under the balance cock, placed to raise the balance cock up and increase the end-shake of the balance. This is something similar to the usual making of divots in the place under the piece, using a graver, but less permanent obviously.

The second red flag was a drop of glue on the top and side of the balance cock. It was not holding anything, just sitting there on the top edge and part of the side. It must have been left there accidentally from doing something else (which I did not find).

I went ahead and fully assembled it. And it ran just fine, dial side down. It stops dial side up because there is too much end-shake (strange considering that fold of tissue paper I removed) in the balance wheel, and it slips down with gravity and touches the underside of the balance cock in that orientation.

The problem is extensive wear to the upper balance pivot. It's not broken, but it's worn down to the point where it is short and will have to be replaced. This can happen either because the jewels have a crack or chip and they cut away at the steel pivot with each motion, or when I watch is not cleaned, dirt in there can also grind away. Or perhaps other reasons... Hard to say what happened here. The jewel is fine (at this time anyway), and only the upper pivot is badly worn, not both upper and lower.

When I was cutting the hub off in the lathe, to remove the old staff, there occurred a thankfully rare mini-disaster. I guess I pressed the cutter at a bad angle and the staff in the chuck side broke. Bad. That meant I had to reverse the balance and chuck up the side I had been working on, then cut away the rivet instead. This takes a lot longer as it has to be done with extreme precision to avoid damaging the arms of the balance wheel. Turned out OK though, and the new staff is a great fit... This photo shows riveting the new staff.

View the whole album for this project here.

This is one of those watches that the timing machine won't read correctly because of sounds the hairspring makes. The escapement is good, no extra clanking there (which would be bad), but the hairspring rings, which is usually good if anything, so long as it's not doing it because it's touching something. I went ahead and put the hands on and cased it for time tests over several days. It turned out fine.

This watch is an Elgin grade 180, 18 size, 17 jewels, made about 1904.