Job Number 250148

The cannon pinion started slipping after a few days. It's tricky to tight one of this type. It's fragile for one thing, but also if it is too tight that inner ring engaged during setting will slip. There is a very narrow range of "snug-ness" that will work.

The album for this project is here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lre7xNxQ9eTiXfSU8

Elgin serial number 3793826 is a grade 70, 18 size, 15 jewels, made about 1890. This is a B.W. Raymond model.

Job Number 220046

This movement is Elgin's grade 102, 18 size, 11 jewels, made about 1891.

No real issues with the train, everything is in good shape.

The cannon pinion was broken. The broken was in on the left. I found a replacement but I think this may be the last one of these I have on hand. Parts get more challenging everyday.

Nice big hunter cases with low wear are always good to see.

See the album for this project here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/2iBtbtjTvasMURjw6

Job Number 220016, of Setting and Cannon Pinions

The owner noted that the lever does not lock in out position when setting, you have to hold it. Many lever mechanisms have a second spring that pushes the lever out for this purpose. This watch does not. I thought I'd try to improve it anyway. It is the tension of the setting action itself that pulls the clutch (and thus the lever) back.

What a can of worms that turned into... 

Nothing is worn or broken on this movement. The only way to alter setting tension is the friction of the cannon pinion. But it turns out there is a *very* narrow range of tightness wherein the clutch will not slip in setting, and the the hands will still turn when running. There's nothing I can do to make it better, and it took too many attempts just to get it working - back to where I started. 

You can only adjust a cannon pinion so many times.

I really should have left well enough alone. I just hope it will be alright now.

If the cannon pinion is loose enough that the setting action does not disengage the lever from setting mode then the cannon pinion slips when the watch is running and the hour and minute hands do not move.

The clutch and the intermediary gear it turns in setting do not fully line up in the vertical. That's just how the movement is designed. It slips there easily, when setting, if the cannon pinion is too tight. 

The album for this project is here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/uPCp4erae19SGjQP9

Information Please!

From The American Horologist and Jeweler magazine, February, 1942

Information Please!
By W. H. SAMELIUS

P.W.A.: - I have been instructed to carefully true compensated balance in the round and poise them. When this is done, I find on returning to work the next morning, after the shop has been cold all night, that the balance is out of round. Should I true such a balance again after assembling the watch?

Ans: - A compensating balance can only be trued and remain so at one temperature. If you true the balance at 70° F and leave it on the bench overnight to get cold where the temperature probably dropped 20 or 30 degrees you will find the balance rims have moved outward and the balance out of round. In other words, the brass rim will have contracted more than the steel rim and the cut ends of the rim will extend beyond the length of the arms. You will note that as soon as the room temperature has increased to the same temperature as when the balance was trued, it will become true again, or back to its normal form.

B.S.: - How can I make a simple cement for patching broken porcelain watch dials?

Ans: - In a clean vessel, dissolve pure white wax and mix with an equal amount of zinc white. When cold, the cement can easily be pressed into the broken places in the dial. Heat the dial slightly to make the cement flow and adhere to the surface. Cleanliness in mixing and a little heat will contribute to the production of a very white wax.

JR.L.: - I see in the late Elgin Catalog and bulletins, an announcement of a patented grooved balance staff which has been introduced. Without a doubt, this proves to be a valuable timesaver for the man at the bench.

The fact that the new staff can be driven out and not injure the balance wheel and that a new staff can be staked to the wheel, leaving the wheel perfectly flat, so no or very little truing is required and that the balance will remain in poise, is a great step forward, but how can I distinguish the new staff from an old staff when a watch comes to the shop for repairs.

Ans: - The difference between the regular model staff and the new model grooved staff is that the waist, or hub on the regular staff is tapered, where the new model staff has a straight hub.

P.D.: - I am having trouble in attaching gummed paper printed clock dials, so the dial will stick and stay flat and smooth and not peel off after a few days.

Ans: - The surface of the metal dial must first be prepared by removing the old paint with paint remover. Thoroughly clean the surface by using coarse sand paper. Wet the gummed side of the dial with a cloth and when ,Nell moistened, attach paper to metal disc laid on flat surface, then with pads and weights, hold the dial down tight until dry. You will then have no further trouble.

E.L.O'B.: - Would like to know what causes the cannon pinion to raise up off center post, no matter how tight the cannon pinion is put on?

Ans : - This question is often asked and the illustrations show the causes for cannon pinion raising. 

Figure No. I - shows center post tapered at the lower end so when cannon pinion is applied, it will have a tendency to raise upward and become loose.

Figure No.2 - shows center post of equal diameter from top to bottom but with the groove slanted upward instead of downward toward the base of the arbor. A cannon pinion fitted to this center post will also cause the cannon pinion to climb up and become loose. 

Figure No.3 - shows center post of equal diameter from top to bottom with the groove so shaped that when the cannon pinion is attached, it will have a tendency to work downward and remain on the post. When fitting a new cannon pinion, make sure the pinion fits freely down to the shoulder of the post. Then by inserting a brass wire in the hole of the cannon pinion, placing the cannon pinion in a V stump and with a center punch, make a small indentation or bulge that will come just below the groove of center post, as indicated by arrows.

Occasionally, we find a cannon pinion, after being placed on center post, that has a tendency to turn rather hard. This may be due to a rough hole in the pinion or rough surface on center post. In such a case, it is permissible to lubricate the center post. 

Elgin Grade 55

There are a few good tricks to getting a very difficult threaded pocketwatch case open. This case was one of the toughest I have encountered. The back was fine, but the front bezel resisted every attempt. I finally went with this method. It is usually the backs that are problems.

It's just what it looks like, a nut super-glued to the crystal. The crystal, luckily, is very tight and secure, it did not itself turn. If it had, I likely would have had to give up on this one.

Once the glue had sat for a day under some mild pressure to hold the nut still, the wrench opened the case. Amazingly, it still wasn't easy!

To do this, it has to be the "super-glue" type of glue. It is strong against lateral force and so will stay put while slowly applying pressure with the wench. Afterwards this type of glue releases and disappears easily in Acetone.

After removing the bezel, there was no clue as to why it was so tight. I expected to see glue or something, it was that tight. However, there were a number of little chips from the damaged dial. I think one of these might have been wedged in the threads.

How about some "before" images of the disassembly? We can see the condition is pretty rough, but it is all there.

Under the dial there are two secondary serial number stamps, all matching.

 All the teeth are broken off of the cannon pinion. It is completely destroyed.

This watch had a broken balance staff. This setup is used to remove the roller table. This is different from the tool I usually use because the solid balance wheel has three arms instead of two.

Also note that in the front facing part of the balance wheel there is a slight carve out along this, the under side. This is to poise the wheel, making its weight even on all sides.

Removing the balance staff proceeds as usual by cutting off the back hub. Extra care not to damage the silver balance wheel is called for.

Here is what's left of the staff after popping it off the wheel.

 The new staff is riveted on as usual.

This tool is used to tighten the collet of the hairspring slightly.

This watch is now running OK, but it is going to be very slow. There's nothing I can do about it. The balance is a bit out of flat and these are just too risky to try to adjust. They can't be replaced.

Here is the replacement cannon pinion. It is not exactly the right part, but we have to make do with what we can find.

The replacement cannon pinion is too tight.

I decided to go ahead and reduce the center arbor to fit a replacement cannon pinion. This is tricky because the friction-fit cannon pinion has to be snug enough that the hands turn as the center shaft does, but loose enough to allow slip when setting the time.  You can't put metal back if you reduce too much.

I gave the center wheel arbor a nice shine while I was at it

 Looks good.

This is one of those older American movements that uses one case screw with a pin on the other side. On this one the pin is intact for a change. It's the one problem this watch didn't have. It's amazing how often these are broken off. I have no idea why.

This watch has one of the heaviest solid gold cases I have ever seen.

Whew, a lot of non-trivial work went into this one. It's far from like new, but it's running.

This is an Elgin grade 55, 18 size, 7 jewels, made about 1871. It is a W. H. Ferry model. Unnamed versions of this grade have a split balance wheel.

To Tighten Cannon Pinion

From The American Horologist and Jeweler magazine, March, 1942

To Tighten Cannon Pinion
By WILBERT AMSTER
Photo by Harold W. Amster

To tighten a cannon pinion, I use an ordinary finger nail clipper. If the clipper is of a cheap quality it may be necessary to harden and temper the cutting edges. I insert a round broach snugly in the pinion (if a plugged pinion I hold the broach against the outside). Place the pinion between the cutting edges of the clipper, being sure the cutting edges are seated exactly in the original dents; then withdraw the broach slightly and give the clipper a firm squeeze. If not tight enough, repeat the operation. The straight outside edges of the cutters allow a pinion to be dented very close to a square shoulder if necessary.

Information Please!

From The American Horologist and Jeweler magazine, April, 1942

]S: - 1 have been a subscriber to the American Horologist for several years and enjoy reading questions and Answers. Here is one I have not seen answered yet: I sometimes find a cannon pinion that is tight all the way down; until it just gets to place then it is loose. Please advise how to remedy this trouble. 

Ans: - The illustration shows a center arbor with a groove, or relief. As you state the cannon pinion goes down tight part way and then becomes loose when finally seated. If is it a cannon pinion that is not slitted for tongue tension, you will have to insert a brass wire into cannon pinion, laying the cannon pinion on small V-block and with center punch, create a bulge inside the pinion high enough so it just goes over the edge of recess in center arbor. In other words, the bulge, or tongue in cannon pinion tube must come down just below the slanted, or tapered groove of center pinion. If this does not remedy your trouble, I would advise procuring a new center arbor. The illustration shows, one side of the cannon pinion Fig No.1, where the bulge of the cannon pinion rides free in the recess and Fig. No. 2 where the bulge in cannon pinion rides below the edge of groove of center arbor. The February issue of American Horologist also. deals with this subject.

FS: - Occasionally I want to remove engraving from inside of rings, also from top of signet rings. How can I do this easily and quickly?

Ans: - For removing engraving from the inside of rings, first use half round file to cut dawn the engraving. Then use round ring buff or emery stick in lathe to smooth off file marks. Follow this up with a felt buff charged with rouge.

Far facing off signet, make a wooden wheel about 4" in diameter and 1/2 to 3/4" thick. One that will fit the arbor of your polishing lathe. Charge one side of wheel with tripoli, the other side with rouge. File out engraving from signet ring, press signet ring against side of lap that is charged with tripoli. This operation will remove the file marks and leave the surface flat, when you can finish the job by polishing the surface of the ring an the apposite side of lap which is charged with rouge. Use a moderate speed in polishing which will bring excellent results. Where a quantity of rings is to be faced, a lead lap is used.

RW: - 1 have a fine French clack with an Onyx case. The onyx is very dirty and somewhat discolored. Can you tell me how I can clean and restore the onyx to. its original appearance?

Ans: - Make a paste of plaster of paris and benzene. Apply a coating of this aver the surface of the onyx. As the benzene evaporates, the grease and dirt will be drawn into the plaster of paris, which is then rubbed off. If there is considerable grease in the onyx, the process may have to be repeated. To polish the case, dissolve beeswax in benzene. Apply and polish vigorously, using a flannel cloth.

WO: - At a meeting, one of the speakers referred to a "Clock Watch."' Is this a trade term for some special timepiece?

Ans: - The term "clock watch" takes its name from similarity of construction to our common alarm clock. That is, the clock, which is non-jewelled and in many cases, has lantern pinions, and the balance unit is supported by a balance arbor with cone pivots running in hollow steel screws.
We might say a "clock watch" is a clock reduced to pocket size.

PL: - A friend of mine has an antique verge watch, key wind, chain drive. He says it has a Shagreen case. Please tell what a Shagreen case is made of?

Ans: - Shagreen is a leather made from skin of sharks. By wetting the leather, it becomes soft and pliable and was used to cover the outside of watch cases and many other articles. It was dyed in various colors, watch cases were usually covered with dark brown, dark green or black leather. 

HA: - I recently made a trade and secured an old American Clock, something I have always wished for. After setting it up to run, it continually gains time. I have lengthened the pendulum to the limit, added weight to pendulum, but to no avail, it still gains time. Can you suggest what I can do to make this clock keep time?

Ans: - In building wooden clocks, the wheels were pressed and glued fast to the arbor. Some of the wheels were merely pressed into place without glue and with age, they sometimes work loose. If you will examine each wheel, it is very likely you will find one or more of the wheels loose on their arbors. Sometimes, we have found the small pin that holds the escape wheel fast to it's arbor, has fallen out, allowing the escape wheel to slip. This should solve your problem.

PD: - The watchmaker who held the place before I came here, held the position for some 25 years and he I evidently never threw away a thing. He left a lot of worn out files, drills, broken punches, etc. Is there anything I can do with them. 

Ans: - There is. Broken gravers, too short for turning may be just right for engraving, carving, chasing or stone setting, by slightly altering their shape. The files may be softened by heating red hot and allowing them to cool off slowly by burying them in ashes. You will then have the finest steel for making springs and various other parts of the watch or pallets for clocks or other clock work. Broken punches may be softened by heating to dull reel. When cooled, they may be redrilled, hardened and tempered to a dark straw.

No doubt many of your drills could be resharpened and used, or they could be annealed to a rich blue color and used for turning staffs. The old man saved them because he knew all this and of the value to use the old files, punches, etc., for other purposes, where they would again be useful.

Tightening a Solid Cannon Pinion

This is the dial side of a Waltham 1857 model pocketwatch movement. These have a solid, thick walled, cannon pinion.

The cannon pinion is friction fit on the center post and intended to grip the center post tight enough so that the pinion (and thus the hands) turn with the post while the watch is running. But the pinion slips too, so as to allow setting the watch.

A common problem is that the cannon pinion slips too easily, and so slips when the watch is running. As a result, the hands do not move, even though the watch is ticking away normally, and the center shaft is turning. To correct this, the grip of the cannon pinion has to be tightened. Later watches have a sort of finger cut out in the side of this part. This finger can be bent inward to grip the center shaft more. But earlier watches like this one have a thick, solid cannon pinion.

In these instances there is no good fix. The cannon pinion can not be safely crimped as it will break - or damage the tool used.

From time to time, I see one like this one.  A portion of the part's side wall has been filed away, very close to breaking through to the hollow inside, but not quite. Then the inside of the cut out is dimpled in, as so tightens the cannon pinion's grip.

It's not a great fix, but some cases there are no good options. At least this is a neat and tidy job.

As an aside, the teeth at the base of the cannon pinion drive the minute wheel, which in turn drives the hour wheel. This "dial side works" is not shown here, but it hard-ties the two hands to each other. One can not move with out the other moving, and they are an independent part of the train except as driven by the center wheel, which turns once around in 60 seconds.

Also note the squared top of the cannon pinion on this watch, for manual setting from the front with a watch key.

Removing Connon Pinions

From Horology magazine, December 1937

Suggestion Department
Removing Connon Pinions
By H. W. PETTENGILL

There are many ways of removing cannon pinions from small wrist watches and most of us, at some time or other, have broken a center post in so doing. For some time I have used a four- jaw pin-vise. 

First remove the balance wheel, hands, dial and hour wheel. Then tighten the vise on the cannon pinion. With a slight turn and gentle pull the tightest fitting cannon pinion comes off easily, quickly and safely.

Tighening a Key-Wind Pocketwatch Cannon Pinion

Question:

Can I adjust a key-wind cannon pinion as I would one on a pendant set watch?

 

Answer:

No.  The key-set cannon pinions (or every one I have seen), are much thicker and can't be tightened the same way as others.  You'd only end up breaking something, maybe the tool.

This is a problem with no good solution.  What you can do may depend on the circumstances.  Notching the base with a three-cornered punch is not recommended as the notches won't last if the watch is set much, and may grind the center staff.  On the other hand, for an antique watch that is just displayed and occasionally wound, this may actually be OK.  It will make the hands work.

Some folks put some sort of material inside the cannon pinion, such as a fine grit, a tiny bit of fabric or even a hair!  This seems a bad choice to me as anything like that can also grind the center staff, or get out and into the mechanism or at least the center wheel baring, which seems bad.

A few times, I have seen the side of a cannon pinion filed down so that the usual method would then work.  This seems like excessive modification to the part though, and it is is not really carefully done the part would be ruined.

When I've had this problem, I have replaced the cannon pinion or the center staff.  That's the only "correct" answer.  It's usually the center staff that's the worn part.  But these parts are getting very hard to find.  The last couple of times I had to alter a replacement part slightly to work.  This won't always be an option as parts disappear from the world.  The center staff could be made, but making a cannon pinion is quite a procedure, requiring rigs I certainly don't have.  This is one of the repairs that's likely to render some watches non-fixable in the near future, at least not easily.

Here's a few blog posts on the subject:

http://elgintime.blogspot.com/2012/09/elgin-grade-97-cannon-pinion-adjustment.html

http://elgintime.blogspot.com/2013/10/cannon-pinion-fit.html

http://elgintime.blogspot.com/2013/04/grinding-cannon-pinion.html

http://elgintime.blogspot.com/2012/01/mechanics-of-canon-pinion-friction.html

http://elgintime.blogspot.com/2009/10/question-box.html

Cannon Pinion Fit

The outer diameter of this replacement cannon pinion, which took a while to find, has to be reduced a bit. Here it is friction fit on a piece of scrap. Frequent trial fit to the hour wheel is required. If you take off too much, you can't put it back... After the fit is nearly right, the surface is polished to a nice shine. 

It is often the case with replacement parts that they aren't exactly right, particularly the older ones, even when they are supposed to be "the right part". Even during the original assembly at the factory, parts were hand-fit. And it's one the rules of this sort of work that we never modify other parts to find the replacement, always alter the replacement.

When you open up an old watch, you'll find 100 years worth of repairs of all sorts and all sorts of parts, often hand made from scratch. I am sometimes asked by potential customers if I use only factory original parts. It's hard to explain the many reasons that this question doesn't even make sense, not the least of which is that the factories that made these parts have not existed for decades or longer.