New Arrival, Job Number 190019

Coming up, another Elgin "doctor's watch"...

Oris 292EW

 Well this one sure was a pain. I didn't realize what I was getting into.

This Swiss made Oris movement has a pin escapement, no pallet stones - weird.

The 3rd wheel oddly has two pinions. The lower one is not used. It engages nothing.

The parts are all quite crudely made too. The plates appear to be alluminum.

Solid balance wheel, no timing screws.

There are a couple of divots made to true it at the factory.

This was a pain. The lever has it's own bridge. That's fine except that the train bridge, the part that says "Oris" in this image, extends under that lever bridge so that the screw hold both. The train bridge is warped. It doesn't sit flat without being secured. So I had to install the pallet and its bridge while holding the train bridge and keeping the train pivots in place.

Here is the extra exposed wheel and the shaft that carries the sweep seconds hand. This design is typical. The shaft passes through the center wheel shaft which is a hollow tube. The extra wheel goes on the 4th wheel, where the second hand would be on an watch without a sweep second hand.

The shaft inserts from the back and is held in by a flimsy piece of bent brass. The top of the 4th wheel pivot is sticking up. The extra wheel goes there.

The setting mechanism was pretty difficult to assemble. The setting spring, at the left in the image, is actually on the other side of the plate, between two riveted pieces.

This part is pictured upside down. It goes on the movement flipped over so the round parts hold the gears. The task was to somehow move the spring up to it will press on the pin on the left of this part, line up all the gears on this part, and get the screw in. Oh, and this part also holds the minute wheel, not shown, so that's floating around while assembly is attempted as well.

The stem barely works, nice dial and hands though.
See the entire album for this project here.

Job Number 180091

This one is a military issue A11 wristwatch, a grade 557 Elgin, 15/0 size, 15 jewels, made about 1944. 

A-11 is a military Spec, not a specific watch. A-11 watches were issued during to Allied forces during WWII. There are several variations.

A-11 watches were made by Elgin, Bulova, and Waltham.

In this image we can see the black finished parts, and the distinctive extra exposed wheel not found on  typical watch you'll find on this blog (the gear partly covering the word "jewels"). This wheel is riding on the backside of the 4th wheel. The front side of the 4th wheel is were the sub-seconds dial and seconds hand are on a typical vintage watch.

But A-11 watches (mostly) have a sweep-seconds hand - that is the seconds hand is in the center of the dial on top of the minute and hour hands. This extra wheel transfers the motion of the 4th wheel to a pinion in the center, attached to a shaft that runs through to the front. The center wheel on a watch like this is a hollow tube, for that shaft.

Elgin Doctors' Watches

I was sent this watch for possible repair. This is a a grade 83 Elgin, 16 size, 15 jewels, made about 1881, with a sweep seconds hand.

A sweep seconds hand is a seconds hand that is mounted in the center of the dial, like a modern watch, rather than in a small sub-dial, usually near the 6:00. Elgin doctors' watches are an early example of this design.

The problem with this one shown here is that it is missing all the extra parts at the back, and the large seconds hand itself. Elgin doctors' watches are otherwise pretty normal, higher end for that time, 16 size pocketwatches. They rest of the parts are in common with many other Elgin grades.

These Elgin watches are rare. And these parts are extremely rare. In fact, I've never seen them around as separate parts. They may have never, or rarely, been provided as spare parts even at the time. The only source of these parts would be another watch.

As an aside, it gets worse. Because of those extra parts on the back, these movements require a special case that is thicker than a standard 16 size case.

Usually, getting parts is not a big deal as there might be a doner watch out there that is a complete wreck but has the one or two parts you need. It's always worth getting the better watch, or someone's family heirloom, running over another watch that has more severe problems and isn't a part of someone's history, in my opinion.

But when we are talking about a rare watch, people's definition of "worth repairing" shifts. Elgin doctors' watches go for hundreds of dollars, even in extremely poor condition.    

I have actually seen 3 or 4 examples now of these watches, untouched for a long time, that have had all those extra parts removed. The watch can then be used normally, without a seconds hand at all.

That leads me to believe that these parts were always hard to get. DO you have one of these watches? Have you tried to find parts?

Elgin Grade 83

 This watch is an example of an Elgin design with a sweep second hand, that is a second hand mounted in the middle of the dial rather than in a separate sub-dial.  These are sometimes called "doctors' watches".

To move the seconds to the center, the 2nd wheel has a tall post that come up through the back plate.  A sweep wheel mounts on that post.

The center wheel shaft is a hollow tube.  Into that goes a long shaft that will have the second hand at one end and a pinion, engaging the sweep wheel, on the back.

The 4th wheel, which normally carries the second hand, of course does not stick thing the front as they usually do.

The watch is an Elgin grade 83, 16 size, 15 jewels. This fine example made about 1882, and it was a treat to work on it as these are quite rare - in any condition.

That's one dirty mainspring!

The rest of the watch as not nearly so bad in appearance inside. This mainspring barrel is a great example of why old watches that have not been serviced in decades, should be.

This close up shows the center wheel, with the hollow center for the sweep seconds mechanism, and the 2nd wheel staff, with the unusually long upper pivot, that will extend out the back of the plate.

Here is the seconds pinion, and bridge, that will drive the center seconds hand. It mounts to the back of the movement.

The exposed wheel is friction fit to the seconds pinion. There is a special puller for removing these exposed seconds wheels. Trying to removing them with out that tool is one reason the unique parts for this movement are so rare today.

Here we see that the dial on this watch, having a sweep seconds hand, indeed has no sub-dial at 6:00 where it would, due to the location of the 4th wheel, usually be.

This watch is quite full of surprises. The case this watch was found in is an open-face case (having no front cover), as watch used for a professional or engineering purpose would be. The dial, correctly, was positioned such that the 12:00 and the stem would be up when holding the watch normally.

As an aside for a moment... These dials are typically held on by dial "feet" which are little posts that go into the bottom plate. Screws or pins go into the side of the feet to hold them. This watch has screws in the edge of the plate that tighten in against the feet and hold the dial. Or they would have. On this watch the dial feet have been neatly cut off.

Why? Elgin designed its dials with the feet in a certain arrangement such that the dial only goes one way. You can't put in on in a way such that the hole that a dial usually has for the seconds falls in line with the 4th wheel post where the second hand goes.

But there are two types of dials, one has the 12:00 opposite from the seconds for open-face movements (stem up at the 12:00, seconds at 6:00).  And the other dial will place the seconds 90 degrees from the stem, the stem being at 3:00, for a hunter case.

This watch has had its dial feet cut off so that the dial can be rotated for the 12:00 "up" at the stem, for its open-face case. This watch has no sub-seconds dial at the 4th wheel, so it doesn't matter. This movement, and dial, were actually made for a hunter case!

Without the dial feet, this dial is held on by friction. A neat metal band has been attached around the edge of the dial. This makes a lip which snaps over the edge of the main plate perfectly. There is a tiny cutout for the setting lever. The cutout is blurry but visible in the image here, at the rear edge.

Was this done at the factory?  I can't say, but it is extremely good work.

Elgin Grade 83, Sweep Seconds

The grade 83 Elgin is an example of an Elgin design with a sweep second hand, that is a second hand mounted in the middle of the dial rather than in a separate sub-dial. These are sometimes called "doctors' watches".

To move the seconds to the center, the 2nd wheel has a tall post that come up through the back plate. A sweep wheel mounts on that post.

The center wheel shaft is a hollow tube.  Into that goes a long shaft that will have the second hand at one end and a pinion, engaging the sweep wheel, on the back.

The 4th wheel, which normally carries the second hand, of course does not stick thing the front as they usually do.

This close up shows the center wheel, with the hollow center for the sweep seconds mechanism, and the 2nd wheel staff, with the unusually long portion that will extend out the back.

Here is the movement without the sweep mechanism in place, and the seconds pinion, and bridge, that will drive the center seconds hand.

Here is the finished assembly of the sweep seconds mechanism.

Here we see that the dial on this watch, having a sweep seconds hand, indeed has no sub-dial at 6:00 where it would, due to the location of the 4th wheel, usually be.

This watch is quite full of surprises. The case this watch was found in is an open-face case (having no front cover), as watch used for a professional or engineering purpose would be. The dial, correctly, was positioned such that the 12:00 and the stem would be up when holding the watch normally.

As an aside for a moment...  These dials are typically held on by dial "feet" which are little posts that go into the bottom plate.  Screws or pins go into the side of the feet to hold them.  This watch has screws in the edge of the plate that tighten in against the feet and hold the dial.  Or they would have.  On this watch the dial feet have been neatly cut off.

Why? Elgin designed its dials with the feet in a certain arrangement such that the dial only goes one way.  You can't put in on in a way such that the hole that a dial usually has for the seconds falls in line with the 4th wheel post where the second hand goes.

But there are two types of dials, one has the 12:00 opposite from the seconds for open-face movements (stem up at the 12:00, seconds at 6:00).  And the other dial will place the seconds 90 degrees from the stem, the stem being at 3:00, for a hunter case.

This watch has had its dial feet cut off so that the dial can be rotated for the 12:00 "up" at the stem, for its open-face case. This watch has no sub-seconds dial at the 4th wheel, so it doesn't matter.  This movement, and dial, were actually made for a hunter case!

Without the dial feet, this dial is held on by friction. A neat metal band has been attached around the edge of the dial. This makes a lip which snaps over the edge of the main plate perfectly. There is a tiny cutout for the setting lever. The cutout is blurry but visible in the image here, at the rear edge.

Was this done at the factory? I can't say, but it is extremely good work.

Here is the watch, which the sweep seconds hand installed. Note the seconds markers around the outside of the dial.

The stem we can not see, but it is at the 12:00, making this dial work for an open-face case.

This particular watch was made about 1882.

It is a 16 size, 15 jewel movement.