Job Number 210009

This movement is a 12 size Elgin, 17 jewels, grade 344 made about 1918.

I found the upper balance jewel loose in its bezel. It looks like the right jewel but too small. It might be a replacement just floating in there? I'll secure it correctly.

This is a hunter movement in an open face case. Normally when you do this, the stem falls at the 3:00. This dial is made rotated 90 degrees so that the stem falls at 12:00 as on a normal open face watch leaving the seconds dial at 3:00. 

Open face movements are arranged such that the stem and second dial (which is the 4th wheel) are 180 degrees from each other. 

Without the particular dial this watch would be a "side-winder".

See the album for this project here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HqrNKb7DXsbDQ6yo6

Job Number 180087

No special issues with this one, for a change. It's s a grade 455 Elgin, 16 size, 19 jewels, made about 1918. It's also a B.W. Raymond model.

Note that this movement is in a hunter case (having a front cover), but the 12:00 is at the stem location. This is an open-face movement in a hunter case. It is the reverse of the more common combination of a hunter movement in an open face case, often called a side winder.

Cases and movements were purchased separately at the time. People bought whatever they preferred, or perhaps whatever was available.

See the entire album for this project here.

More B.W. Raymond examples here.

And finally, more railroad watches here. 

New Arrival

You see a lot of hunter movements in open face watch cases. With the stem usually at 3:00 people sometimes call these side-winders.

This watch is an example of something less common. It's an open face movement in a hunter case. This combination would generally end up with the stem at 12:00.

Job Number 160257

Here is a grade 81, 18 size, 13 jewels, made about 1883. 

This watch had a very loose roller jewel, shown here near the center of the underside of the balance wheel. Amazingly, the jewel was in there, on the roller table, and not lost. But all the shellac was loose.

This pocketwatch movement has the seconds dial 180 degrees from the 12:00 mark. That makes it an open-face movement in a hunter case (a hunter case is one with a front cover). A hunter movement has the seconds dial 90 degrees from 12:00.

The two types of movements exist so that 12:00 will face up when placed in the corresponding case. A hunter movement in an open-face case is usually called a side-winder because the stem will fall at 3:00. See some examples here.

This watch has an open-face movement in a hunter case. Or is it? Careful observers will notice that this is a key-wind, key-set Elgin. The crown does not even turn. This movement has no place for a stem from the case to go in. The orientation of the movement does not matter at all.

It's not the movement that is open-face style. It's just the dial that is.

The orientation of the movement in the case is dictated by a pin in the edge of the movement that goes into a hole in the inside edge of the case rim. The location of that hole orients the movement. And some cases of this type indeed have a hole in two locations, 90 degrees apart, for just this situation.

Elgin Grade 386

Compare the needle like pivot on the other end and the broken one...

Here we see that the lower balance staff pivot is broken, and as is often the case, the lower jewel is ruined also. This sort of damage will occur anytime a watch is dropped, or otherwise receives a sharp jolt.

The replacement jewel is on the right. The cap jewel is above.

The pallet fork... This is actually prior to cleaning the part. If you look close you can see specks of grit that are typical when a watch has not been cleaned in awhile. Even if a watch runs fine, or seems to, such specks will grind away at moving parts. Running a watch without servicing it is just like running a car without ever changing the oil.

The old staff with the broken pivot is separated from the balance wheel by cutting away the back hub in the lathe.

Here is the reassembled balance.

This is a hunter case movement in an open-face case. A hunter case is the type that has a front cover. A hunter case movement has the stem 90 degrees off the second hand. In an actual hunter case, this movement's dial would have the 12:00 up when held in the orientation shown here, with the stem pointing right. These is sometimes called a "side-winder".

An open face movement is setup so that the stem is at the 12:00, upright when held stem up, and the seconds dial 180 degrees off the stem.

Movement types and case types are often mix and match. The dials are also found made in different orientations, the markers rotated to adapt movements to the opposite case style.

On the Elgin serial number database site movements are referred to as hunter or open face. But this distinction has nothing to do with the type of case the watch is actually in. It refers only to the style of the movement.

Elgin Grade 88

Elgin's grade 88 is an 18 size, 11 jewel movement.

This example was made about 1883. 

Elgin Grade 295

The grade 295 is a 6 size movement, but this one is in a "stretch case" that makes it as large as a 12 size watch would be.

This is a 15 jewel Elgin product, this one made about 1917. 

The dial and case on this watch are interesting. One immediately notices that the sub-seconds dial is at the 3:00.

This is a hunter case movement, having the stem at 90 degrees off the seconds hand (the location of the 4th wheel, inside), and it is mounted in an open face case. So that the watch is not a "side-winder", a dial has been used that places the 12 marker at the stem, leaving the seconds at 3:00. A conventional open-face dial on a hunter case, with an open-face case, would place the stem at 3:00.

The radial dial markers are also interesting and a bit unusual.

JS086

Elgin Grade 10, and An Interesting Dial

Elgin's grade 10 pocketwatch movement is a large, 18 size, 11 jewel model.

This one was made about 1887.

This particular watch would probably rightly be called a side-winder because it is a hunter case movement, placed in an open face case.

Hunter movements have the seconds dial at 90 degrees from the stem.  Open face movements have the seconds dial at 180 degrees (opposite) the stem.  This watch has had a dial installed with the number rotated 90 degrees from usual.  As a result, 12 o'clock is at the stem, where it would normally be in an open face case.  The seconds dial then locates at 3 o'clock.

It's important to keep in mind that dials and cases are rather mix and match on vintage American watches.  Customers got what they wanted, or what was available, at the time of the purchase, at the retail location.  The Elgin company actually didn't make pocketwatch cases, generally speaking.

Elgin Grade 307

Here's a lever-set Elgin.  It's a grade 307, 18 size, 17 jewels, made about 1904.

This is a hunter movement mounted in an ope-face case, often called a "side-winder."

An Interesting Dial on an Elgin Grade 290

I was sent these photos from a watch owner in the U.K.  There is a lot going on with this watch.  This is a grade 290 Elgin, 16 size, 7 jewels, made about 1920.  It says "Elgin USA" in a block font.  This is not typical on an early watch in my experience.

Second, it is in a hunter case...  Keep in mind that Elgin never made pocketwatch cases.   The common practice was that a customer would pick out a movement and a case separately at the shop and the watchmaker or jeweler would assemble them together at the shop.

The type of movement is determined by the location of the seconds dial relative to the stem.  It's either 180 degrees or 90 degrees.  This movement is an open-faced movement made with the intention of having the stem at 12:00 and the seconds at 6:00.  A hunter movement is made so that the stem is at 3:00 and the seconds is at 6:00.

The difference is whether it is intended to be read with the stem up (open-face), or the stem to the right (hunter).  When a hunter movement is installed in an open-face case, it's often called a "side-winder".

The dial though can be made independently of all this.  You see dials made for placing hunter movement in open-face cases with the stem at 12:00 and the seconds at 3:00, for example.

This watch is the reverse.  It's a dial made to accommodate putting an open-face movement in a hunter case.  The dial places the 12:00 up when the watch is held normally, in the left hand, the stem at 3:00 and the seconds at 9:00.  Hunter movements in open-face cases are pretty common, with or without a special dial, but not the reverse.

I also like the radial roman numerals.  I have seen marks like this before, but it is a less common style.

Elgin Grade 309

The Elgin grade 309 is an 18 size, 7 jewel watch.  This example was made about 1909.

This style of case is called a "swing-out". The back is all one piece and the movement swings out on a hinged ring.

This is a hunter case movement, designed for a case that has a pop-open cover. Hunter movements have the seconds dial at 90 degrees from the stem. When they are used with an open-faced case and a normal dial, they are referred to as "side-winders" because the stem is at the 3:00 position. Now and then you see one like this with the seconds dial to the right so that the stem can be at 12:00 like a normal open-faced movement would be.